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Happy Holidays everyone!
Has anyone used these (the patented internally geared "pegs" made for violin, cello, banjo and guitar) for steel strings? (and I mean not for banjo but for bona fide light guage guitar steel strings).
I have a client who wants to use these on a steel strung guitar but I have serious reservations about their practicality and effectiveness in that application.
I think it will be a deal breaker for the project if they don't work, but better to bail now rather than deal with our mutual disappointment after much money, time and effort has been spent.

Thanks!

Does the client or you have a brand in mind?

I was thinking about the Gibson Firebird's banjo style tuners.

Also - need room for the gears in a hard case.
Gig bag - not so much.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

In the event that no one replies you could try contacting Chuck Herrin. He should know. The shafts on these pegheads seem to be anodized Aluminium. Some of the strings used for Violins are made of plain Steel and planetary geared Pegs are occasionally used on them. There's a decent chance that the Pegheads will work for steel string Guitar, although I have zero experience of that combination. The Banjo sized peg seems to be about the correct dimensions for small/Parlor type Guitars.

I bought them for the cellist in my band. Never used them for steel string of course, but they did what they said for cello.

You might try to sell him on planetary pegs like were originally used on the first O.M. guitars, and as Chris mentioned Gibson's firebird.

Yep, they work. The 4:1 ratio is very touchy on steels. About the same as wood pegs on nylon strings. I like it, but it's not for everyone. 16:1 is a bit more expensive, but should feel like normal tuners.

As Chris says, case fitting would be an issue for normal guitars. I use them on harp guitars due to lack of space on the headstocks for keys sticking off to the side, so there aren't any standard cases anyway. They can also get in the way of wall hangers, but you can just use a nail and a loop of ribbon as a hanger instead.

Chuck was, at least for a while, messing around with ganging two planetary gear systems to produce 16:1 versions, but I don't know about the current state of that project.

All in all, I think there's no logical reason to use 'em on guitar, unless everyone agrees that form supersedes function, as with the harp guitar situation.

In other words, why suffer all the potential downside when right angle gears are so available and good?

My experience is that it's all fine to set them up on an instrument and show the player how well they work only to have them agree at the time but come back later complaining that they don't like the "action" of the tuner, having to jam it in to keep it tight, etc.

_________________
Cheers,

Frank Ford

FRETS.COM
HomeShopTech
FRETS.NET

Hi David,

Not sure if you saw it, but a year or two ago, Laurent Brondel had this guitar with him at woodstock that was equipped with peg heads. I'm sure he would have some info on them.

Thanks all for your responses! (so far...)
I'm certainly aware of the case issues having recently finished a Torres replica with regular traditional pegs and then needing a case to deliver it to my client. None of the high tech molded thingy's fitted but a traditional 5 ply tolex covered type case worked nicely.
Oval, I was at Woodstock (albeit chained to my table) so I didn't get to look at that one closely......I can't tell if those are nylon or steel from the pics but I'll definitely check in with Laurent as per his "Peghed" experience.

I agree with Frank on all counts and will add that using anything that is not tried and true is just asking for liability down the road. The 4:1 ratio would suck too IMHO, way too aggressive.

If using a new offering tuner where the manufacturer has not even published the tech PDF yet (just visited the site) is a deal breaker for any client this may be a client best passed on....

Not dissing the product but I am always Leary if data and history is not available.

Frank wrote: "All in all, I think there's no logical reason to use 'em on guitar, unless everyone agrees that form supersedes function, as with the harp guitar situation."

Well, I think my client definitely feels that "form" is paramount here, but I'm concerned about both of us eventually being stuck between "form and non-function" if the tuners are not sufficiently effective with steel strings. (I'm not aware that they are advertised as such beyond what one would find on a banjo or violin family instrument).
BTW, this thread should NOT be interpreted by anyone as any type of negative comment on this product. I've heard much praise for these being used with Flamenco guitars and other types of instruments. Readers should recognize that I'm going outside the box a bit here with the query as to whether these might work with the tension of a full size guitar with steel strings.

David -

For sure, you're an capable and experienced guy who know what he's doing, and I hope everybody understands I'm not casting asparagus on your choice to consider PegHeds for steel strings.

As to the PegHeds and Chuck Herrin, I think he came up with the most significant new idea/improvement for the traditional stringed instrument I can imagine. When I first saw the PegHed, I had the biggest "DANG - why didn't I think of that?" moment, as I realized he'd really been thinking outside the pegbox. We've all wanted the benefit gears, but none of us came up with a way to not only make the thing look exactly like standard pegs, but also WORK the same but with mechanical advantage. I use the PegHeds on ooks, flamingos, and other low tension instruments. Wouldn't try a mandolin - for sure.

I whined to him about not being able to use them on banjos without a matching geared fifth, which I presumed would require too much compromise in style. ich - he said, "no problem," drilled the hole off center so the string wouldn't wind up in the gears, and had the things available almost immediately. I hate guys like that - you know, the really smart ones.

Now if I had a client (I don't have clients, really, I have "customers" - it's a semantic thing) who wanted PegHeds on a steel string guitar, I'd figure I had two problems:

1. Will the tuners work as I expect and be ready to do the job for a good long time?

2. Is there any chance in h-e-double-hockey-sticks that my client will take responsibility for his decision to use them? Will he come back complaining about tune-ability an want me to find a way to put on gears that feel smooth and have the 18:1 gear ratio that all his other instruments have?

I won't go into my spiel about the parade of dissatisfied, confused, inept or otherwise unreasonable folks we all get to work for, but before using those tuners I'd be mighty careful with my reasoning, and expect a potential difficulty down the line. And yes, I did put them on an old "parlor" guitar only to have difficult customer relations.

_________________
Cheers,

Frank Ford

FRETS.COM
HomeShopTech
FRETS.NET

Why not have your customer contact Chuck Herin and get his opinion on the matter. Better that he gets the information from the horses mouth. If the customer concludes they will work, have him supply them and cover the cost up front. How difficult is it to replace pegheads with conventional tuners if things don't work out?

If they are 4:1, no!
Absurd, IMO!

did you.....really mean asparagus?


by the way, for those of you who can't imagine 4:1, how about 1:1 such as the likes of flamencos, violins, cellos, violas, and most other stringed instruments from around the world...? geared tuners are a luxury, NOT a necessity

"by the way, for those of you who can't imagine 4:1, how about 1:1 such as the likes of flamencos, violins, cellos, violas, and most other stringed instruments from around the world...? geared tuners are a luxury, NOT a necessity"

Steel strings require less movement for pitch adjustments - one reason the posts are of a smaller diameter on steel string tuners than the rollers on classical machines. The steel strings on violin family instruments are usually fitted with a fine tuner so the 1:1 pegs just get them close.

yeah, good point about the fine tuners...but those as well are fairly modern appointments. i own a violin and a cello, and i can (usually) get very close with the pegs alone. close enough for rock n roll. 4:1= no sweat, i say

Not to be argumentative, but.....

"The baroque tailpiece is flatter and does not have an upper saddle nor does it have the keyed holes one sees in its modern counterpart. Of course, fine-tuners were unknown and unnecessary until the advent of the wire E-string, ca. 1917"

I do believe that you are right - you can get steel strings pretty much in tune with a 4:1 ratio, it just isn't as easily done as with a higher ratio. Some folks actually prefer a smaller ratio for doing quick pitch changes while playing. I built a guitar with wooden peg tuners. the 1:1 ratio takes some getting used to even with nylon strings. I would be less concerned about the tunability of the pegheds and more about their longevity. Steel strings put a lot more stress on the tuner than nylon.

yes, i forgot that gut was being used till modern times. looks like pegs would be a bad idea overall for SS; same probably applies to the "Pegheads" contraptions. i'd have to see/try the 4:1 pegheads myself i guess

I pretty much use a 1:1 ratio on Gut and Nylon strings all the time. After a while it becomes an advantage and actually trains your ear, or rather it forces you to train your ear. That's what happened to me. I now tune by listening to the strings sounded together - the 4 th's and the 3 rd. 30 years of using fine tuners and I never, ever bothered to train my ear. Less than one year of using wooden Pegs and I was tuning by actually listening. It wasn't even a conscious decision to do it, it just happened. Probably would have been much quicker if I'd of actually set out to train my ear. Of course you can do the same with fine tuners but for some reason many people don't bother, including myself. Hence 30 years of relying on reference pitches. With Pegs it's more a case of being trapped into a corner with no escape. For some reason you don't seem to have much choice in it, probably because you have to sound the string and move the right hand to hold the neck. Maybe that's the little difference that forces one to actually listen.
I think a 4:1 ratio on steel strings shouldn't be that much of a disadvantage, perhaps comparable to 1:1 on a Nylon.